Practical Leadership Cast

Guest Cast: Lance Wilkinson on Leadership and Personal Finance

• Forest Handford • Season 1 • Episode 2

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Forest interviews Lance Wilkinson, an experienced support and implementation manager. He’s also a personal finance coach. In this episode we learn from his experience as a leader.

Lance Recommend reading Radical Candor by Kim Scott, a book about giving feedback. For Lance’s newsletter on managing personal finances please visit lancewilkinson.com . Lance suggested we interview Izzy Piyale-Sheard.

Music credits:

Thanks for listening. Please rate, subscribe, and share. Join the conversation in the Practical Leadership Cast Discord server: https://discord.gg/ewhPY6akRF

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Welcome to the podcast lance.

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Thank you very much.

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Can you take a call? Can you take a couple of minutes to introduce yourself

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Yeah, sure. I'm not sure how deep you want me to go, so please stop me if I'm rambling Lance Wilkinson. Hello!

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How are you? I've worked in tech for give or take 15 years officially, and then various endeavors, younger in my younger years, pretty much starting over a lot of us started in breakfast computer repair back in the earlier 2 thousands at least many of us elder

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Millennials. Work my way up from there I was kind of a telephone polls for a while, which was interesting and terrifying.

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Found my way over to restaurant IT, which was a bit hard to break away from both.

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At breakfast, roller, chipolate, and about 5 years or so at a tech Startup called toast.

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Although of the company now, so I guess they're no longer a startup in various roles in there, mostly revolving around networking computer networking.

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But people networking. Both at the IC. And and management level, and then from Toast I made my way over to Duchy.

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Toast 2, as a lot of people joked.

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But from there ended up in a manager network and manager of network engineering role at like a supply company

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What would you say is the biggest lesson that you've learned about leadership?

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Definitely it is that you have to challenge people and trust them to take that challenge on.

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I would say my first official management role, I would say I took on a team of about 6 people.

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Obviously they're gonna have a myriad of backgrounds and of in things that they hold of importance to themselves.

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Right. I had one fellow who didn't want to do anything else just wanted to put his head down and grind, do the thing and be the best at it, and that's it.

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I I kind of go out of his way you have to learn to to trust people in that.

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They know what their best is, they know what they are, what they're working towards, and make sure that you are removing obstacles to allow them to do.

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Do that, and you know I've had folks on the opposite end of the spectrum who were to use the the rock star or superstar analogy from radical gander.

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By Kim Scott, if you've read it. Excellent book on Leadership.

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Some people are rock stars, and they just wanna do what they do.

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And that's it, and some people want to constantly achieve more and more and more.

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And that's great. Make sure that they have the challenge to do that, and to associate that desire within themselves.

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I do love that analogy and I've forgotten that I got it from radical candor.

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Sometimes I, I there are some radical candor that I don't like, or or maybe feel.

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Didn't age. Well, but in in general I do like that book

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Yeah. Absolutely. Lot of good, very basic principles in there about about leadership as a whole.

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And it was an excellent read. I think I I read it probably 6 months into that role again.

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My first management level role. And it really helps me to understand those those principles of let people do what they're great at and find their strengths and allow them to focus on it and remove things that are in their way

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What is leading a support and implementation team. Do you feel like? There are obvious differences from other leadership roles

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Yeah, I would say, they're both very, very metric driven, which is something that you know.

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Personally, I'm not gonna say I'm struggling with, but I'm challenged by in my new role, which is more of an engineering focus role and more of a a focus on accomplishments and and a project you know, sprint kind of mentality.

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Implementation and support are both very, very metric driven right?

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There's a lot of numbers around around the role, and that is used as a measure.

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As Kpis as to how that person is performing and how they're doing in regards to the standards that are being set and the rest of the team there is also a lot of overlap, especially when you're talking about technical support and technical implementation roles you know

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I have found that a lot of folks I'm not gonna say it's a it's a hard rule or set in stone rule, but a lot of folks that came from support into implementation.

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We're very, very set up for success because they had been at that level of I'll put it this way.

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No one calls support just to say, Hey, guys, everything's great.

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Keep doing what you do it. Everyone calls support for a inertly or or innately negative reason, right?

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And being able to take those situations, and not only not only see them through the resolution, but making sure the customer knows that.

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Hey? I'm the person to see them through the resolution I will.

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I will fix your problem. I will get done what you need to get.

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Is a great great stepping stone into an implementation role where you have that more neutral ground in establishing a relationship with the customer that you are going to, not fix their problem.

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But make sure they don't have any problems that need to be fixed

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Cool.

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So I I know from, like your profile, that beyond leadership you're also really passionate about personal finances.

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So like, do you see a a connection like, how do you incorporate your financial interest into the leaders

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Yeah, yeah, for sure. I think that I think a lot of things in life beyond these 2 specific topics here that we're discussing require a lot of motivation to get started.

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But just split to keep going right, and to make sure that you are recognizing challenges and acting according, I always use the the analogy of working.

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Has it something that let's be honest, I'm gonna say, 9.9 people out of 10 struggle with to do consistently, myself included.

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I have started my weight loss journey many times I have yet to finish it, but you know motivation to do the thing with whether it's you know whether it's being fiscally responsible, whether it is, you know, taking on a new a new headcount on a team or

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Something, a new technical challenge is fantastic. It's what gets us out of bed.

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But it doesn't last forever. It's fleeting it's temporary, and discipline is really, really what it takes.

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You know I found myself in the habit sometimes so I'm just browsing Amazon.

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We all do it, hate to give the money, but man is a convenient, and you know, adding things to the card, and I'm like, Oh, I'd love to buy that.

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Yeah.

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I'd love to buy that, and then just letting them sit there for a while, and you know, noodling on it a bit, and then you come back to it in a day or 2.

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You're like. I don't need that. I don't need to buy, you know. I

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And I find that very similarly, with leadership too, and you have to recognize when you're doing things where you're working for work safe when you're doing things.

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In a, in a, in a, in a, in a, in a a mediocre.

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What's the word I'm looking for? In a in a repetitive and and non-intuitive way, and under how to how to break out of the cycles

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So.

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Do you feel like as a leader

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That it's

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Kind of part of your responsibility to teach about finances as as well like is is that you know, if your when you're coaching and mentoring, do you feel like you know, because you have that passion in your co cause, you have that interest you you have that experience do you do you incorporate, it.

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in your management roles, or do you keep it separate?

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I I saw it out a bit, depending on the person depending on the relationship.

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That you build. You know I I have managed folks who are all business don't want anything to do with you.

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Basically outside of the 9 to 5 or whatever Brian. And that's perfectly fine.

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Everyone has their boundaries, but I have definitely on the relay in the relationships, in a working environment that I've established that have been a lot more personable.

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I have definitely offered an advice as well. One key thing that comes up any more pops into microwave is a fellow at coast who was one of the first I'm gonna say, under 20 people, that we're hired when I say he was drowning in stock in equity options.

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I mean it. I was very jealous, but at the same time he took a huge risk.

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He joined a precede Startup company, and he was awesome in his job, and when rumors started flowing, and hey, maybe the company is going to go public and and hey, this is actually going to be worth something.

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But we've all worked towards, you know, knowing what I need.

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I I kind of setting aside during a one-on-one, and I'm like, Hey, I'll call him John.

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But hey, John, yeah, I just wanna let you know. Like, if you have any questions about what to do with roughly 2 million dollars coming into coming into your life all of a sudden in your early thirties, like, let me know, I'm not gonna tell you how to spend it.

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But I'm gonna tell you what to watch, help for and what to not spend it on, and not just pissing all away because it's very tempting to do.

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Yeah.

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You know, when you see those commas in the bank, and you start to see those commas in the bank account, and you know I gave him some some advice on on the taxes.

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Part of it not that I am an expert, and I very much so disclaimed, but you know, hey, this is, you know, what you should be kind of working towards.

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You're in a very unique position. You're you're young, you're in your early thirties.

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You're coming into a sizable amount of money that is absolutely life changing, either, even if it's not, hey?

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I'm gonna retire, you know, I told them. Is it enough to retire in America?

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Yeah, it. It depends on how you live. Is it enough to disappear to Southeast Asia?

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Absolutely and that's up to you or or the career. I'd go with the Caribbean. But that's up to you.

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What you want to do, and I've had similar conversations with other folks.

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And I think that the text started environment very much facilitates that as well cause it is something on everyone's mind in a text.

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Startup right, hey? Is this gonna be worth? So

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Yeah, so I mean, this isn't necessarily leadership question.

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But it's definitely something that people think about when they start a job is like there's there's, you know, several things that come in the offer package.

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There can be equity, there can. There's the base pay.

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There can be a bonus. There can be a match.

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There can be. There's, you know, vacation, and then there's it benefits like commuter benefits.

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Really.

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If you're in a hybrid or on site role, and then there can also be.

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There's also insurance benefits, and you know, sometimes, you know, like for me, family health is super important, and like, I totally want to factor in family health.

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When I'm I'm considering a thing cause like I have to pay for family health, and if if they're only gonna cover like the personal part, and I have to cover out of pocket, like all of the family part, then I I have to like just okay, well the base Comp is basically, that much

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Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

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Less for me, so like. How would you counsel people about thinking about that?

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Because you know, even even for experience, leaders that are thinking about new roles that that can be a daunting process of figuring out like, okay?

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Well, there is this small base salary, but then there's this giant quarterly bonus, or there's a match like, you know. What?

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What do you look at in a package and does it?

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Sure.

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Does it depend on age? And you know what? What's your advice for people that are looking at potentially accepting a new role

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Definitely great question. I would bucket it into tangible money and and intangible, tangible money being what is gonna show up in your bank account.

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I weekly, or or or twice a month, depending on, you know.

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Pay cycles are weird nowadays. What is actually going to show up predictably in your bank account, very similar to to you know.

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Personally, I off the rails a little bit. I had oil heat a long time ago, and it was the worst, because you've fill it 4 times a year, 200 300 gallons of oil 600 you know, 4 to $600 a pop and then never again and it was extremely unpredictable you didn't know

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How, much you need. You didn't know what the current price was.

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It was you. Couldn't. You couldn't really budget for it.

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You just had to set aside some money, for throughout the year, whereas, having elected gas, you know what that's gonna cost every time the heat runs, it's gonna be X amount of money.

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I I like predictability. I think humans like predictability.

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And you know as much as it can be beneficial to push yourself outside that comfort zone in some areas of life money, generally isn't one of them, in my opinion.

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So I would say that the the base pay is really is really the key element.

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There? Is that base enough to for you to live the life that you have designed, that you have, you know, developed over the years in make sure that you can a make and be hopefully save on top of that cause that is something that I think it's like 40 it's high forties to to mid fifties

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Percentage of Americans simply just don't save or save less than 5% of the income that's terrifying to me.

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And then you start to factor in like you said the health care, which is obviously a huge.

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We can go very deep down that rabbit hole in America.

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But we won't. The health care is what it is, and it's unfortunately an assessment, and, like you said, I think you put it very, very eloquently that when you are thinking, hey, I'm gonna have to pay $700 a month, or something.

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On a pocket for for the additional health care. Beyond that, my individual coverage that I need.

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That is it absolutely, how I would look at it. Simply, that's $700 less on it.

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That Bi weekly pay, or what have you per month? Yeah.

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350 per check. That I am gonna have to just basically consider, going because it isn't assessed.

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And then age. You also mentioned is definitely a factor. You know I'm on the cusp of 40.

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It feels bad to say and I was talking to a friend earlier about it, and 30 years ago, dressed, part came out.

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I think it was more but little things to make us feel old.

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It's it's great, but that is a factor.

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That's something that I personally factor in to to decisions in terms of employment and health care, because it's directly to employment in America.

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You have to consider that what are my health? Care costs if you go, you know, to your primary care twice a year for a checkup, and maybe you need a Z pack once a year or something chances are you're not gonna really put as much stock in that as if you've had you know, multiple issues, on

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Personally like I get Mris every 2 or 3 years for fine stuff.

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I factor that in? I've actually even thought to like, Hey, I'm gonna go on vacation at Mexico next year. Maybe I should just get an MRI for 200 bucks a week.

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Because the MRI machine is the same, but the other variable there, especially in the in the heck or or startup world, is echo, and I have learned I have looked at it through rose colored glasses.

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I have been paying down by the Golden handcuffs, as they say, and ultimately, at the end of the day, if you could predict what's going to happen in the market, whether a company stock is going to go up or down, whether their company is going to go public and successfully or not then you wouldn't have to worry about predicting the

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Market, and if you can, please let me know off offline, because I'd love to talk.

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But ultimately that is a lovely Perk. But you should not consider it to be anything but concrete.

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If the company is noble.

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Cool.

00:19:12.750 --> 00:19:19.570
So who's your favorite leader to have worked for? And why

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Cool, good question. You want names, you have to say names publicly.

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Well, this is a good thing, right? I'd like Yeah, we don't have to.

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But maybe they'll hear the podcast.

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So, I'll go on a couple of different levels. I'll go on, the the c-suite the executive level, and I will say, Chris Converado, he was the CEO.

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And I started In Mid, 2,016. He is still the CEO, and he is honestly the most one of the most down to Earth people I have ever, you know.

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When you're when you're first meeting a C-site level executive.

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And I think this changes as you get older over time. And become more comfortable with with dealing with people of different levels of authority like that but you're like, Oh, man, this guy's the CEO.

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I I I better, you know, cost my teas.my eyes, etc.

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But instantly he just personifies he's just the guy, you know.

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Yeah, I I've run into him at the gym at 5, you know.

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5, 6 in the morning, when people were actually going into the office years years ago.

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And you know morning, Chris, how are you doing? He's like, I think I'm dying because he's dripping sweat, and you know he just went for a 5 mile run on the tradmill, or what have you?

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But he does an excellent job of removing those, those natural barriers of like disguise.

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The CEO because he's not. He's just a guy.

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He is extremely approachable, and I think that the culture that toast has built really really goes to show that.

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And they are just a very genuine company, and a lot of it.

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If you look at their job listings, they have all these bread puns, and in the prescriptions, and it seems kind of kitchy and like oh, really like that, it's it's almost it's almost cringing in a way.

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But it actually is legitimate, and they do mean it.

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And it's a rarity in the world I have.

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On a more direct, direct level, I would say, going to another Chris, Chris Ryd, who I work with both at toast and duchy.

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He is a a customer, success leader, PP. Of customer, success.

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That you can't recall, but he again he! He has that approachability, that humanity to him, and he very, very clearly will say, This doesn't work, or we're doing this wrong like.

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Here's why. Here's what I think. If you think different, tell me he's he's not

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Early nineties, Sitcom, vice President, or anything like that in the 3 button suit.

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Hmm.

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Again. He's just a guy, and he really puts out there that you can challenge.

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I want you to check. If you think that I'm wrong, I'm not the end.

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I'll be all we are here to to work together, and it's you're working with him.

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You're not working for it, and I think that's really what it boils down to.

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No one wants a boss or wants a manager.

00:22:04.220 --> 00:22:08.970
Yeah, make you feel like rap about yourself. Makes you feel like I have to do what they say.

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To a degree short, but it's more of a collaborative.

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And really my ethos, I guess I don't think it's a word I use very often, but of managing people is I am not successful in my role unless I can make sure that you're successful.

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Whatever that means, even if it's work. If you're having difficulties with other teams at work or you're having difficulties with customers, or you need help, because you're buried in credit card net, whatever it is, if you're not successful, then I have worked and I think that everyone i've worked

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with the people I've named in the many, many that I haven't 11 years.

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Oh, God! Over the decades, I can say, have really personified. And I think that's what that's

00:22:52.230 --> 00:23:05.830
Cool.

00:23:05.830 --> 00:23:10.680
You were talking about approachability earlier. Do you feel like there are lessons that you took about approachability, that maybe you can share with us, or that you try to apply in?

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Or or is it something that you don't feel is is really for everybody?

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Leadership.

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Everyone has different styles. Everyone has different styles.

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I'm brought back to for our work. We give you read that team, February little outdated little high level, and and maybe some of it's a big gimmicky, but he he writes brilliantly, and he described the boss that he had at 1 point who

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Introduced himself during a meeting. All hands, company, all hands just joined the company was, Hey, I'm someone.

00:23:40.160 --> 00:23:43.980
I'm here to build a sales team. Let me sat down, and that's exactly according to embarrass what he did.

00:23:43.980 --> 00:23:49.290
He did not make friends with anyone. He was on a Mr.

00:23:49.290 --> 00:23:53.480
Whatever Mr. Last name Mr. Wilkinson, basis with everyone, and that was it.

00:23:53.480 --> 00:24:05.460
No one liked him, but he did a fantastic job, and there is something to be said about that.

00:24:05.460 --> 00:24:11.490
Hmm.

00:24:11.490 --> 00:24:17.300
However, I think that as younger generations are entering the workforce as the the morals and principles that they uphold are are now more and more actively a variable, that that as a people manager, you have to navigate and I'm saying that in a good way, I agree with them, I

00:24:17.300 --> 00:24:25.830
Don't agree with the stand up, say half a sentence and sit down.

00:24:25.830 --> 00:24:43.990
I think that what I'm finding is more and more often people are taking that more approachable approach.

00:24:43.990 --> 00:24:50.070
I have had times, probably more so when I was a supervisor and not an actual manager role, where I probably played my hands too close to my chest and didn't let people in on what I was doing or what I was planning or thinking, and it creates dissonance at at the very least decreased

00:24:50.070 --> 00:24:53.830
Dissonance and and a lack of hunt and a team.

00:24:53.830 --> 00:25:01.180
There's no high int team right? I know there's an M.

00:25:01.180 --> 00:25:08.120
And an E. But there's no I in team, and without that level of transparency and and the word use approachability.

00:25:08.120 --> 00:25:11.560
I don't think I think the the chances of success are because more and more rare, the more that goes back

00:25:11.560 --> 00:25:18.510
You think that

00:25:18.510 --> 00:25:19.480
It can ever go a little bit too far, like

00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:23.180
Oh, yeah, absolutely.

00:25:23.180 --> 00:25:32.310
Yeah.

00:25:32.310 --> 00:25:38.350
And have have you had? It it was interesting what you were saying about generational differences and you're the second person I'm recording.

00:25:38.350 --> 00:25:39.810
Sure.

00:25:39.810 --> 00:25:55.530
I don't know if this will come out as as the second podcast or the third podcast but the

00:25:55.530 --> 00:25:58.430
Do you feel like there's lessons that you've learned from the the different generations that you've worked with like, have have you worked with a lot of generations, or or have you

00:25:58.430 --> 00:26:04.750
Have you not

00:26:04.750 --> 00:26:20.140
Oh, yeah, absolutely. I have, you know, worked with. I would say baby Boomer to to Gen. Z.

00:26:20.140 --> 00:26:23.210
Hmm.

00:26:23.210 --> 00:26:34.030
At this point, and I think I'm relatively lucky in saying that a lot of the the older generations that I have worked with the more the baby boomers that I have worked with have been simply put awesome people 9 9 out of 10 of them are so the few that haven't

00:26:34.030 --> 00:26:38.930
Been generationally aside just a few that haven't been, I find often if they're an invite in an environment where they are, the odd ones, out, they simply do not last.

00:26:38.930 --> 00:26:45.680
For one reason or another. Generally, I think, a lot of times they leave on their own volition.

00:26:45.680 --> 00:26:53.290
I have examples of the opposite of that, but I I have experienced as well.

00:26:53.290 --> 00:26:58.230
You know, a manager, especially during my younger professional career, that those lines were too soft, they too blurry.

00:26:58.230 --> 00:27:04.940
And you know, I I specifically recall. He sent me a texting.

00:27:04.940 --> 00:27:09.040
Obviously his name will be redefined or withheld but he sent me a text one night, saying, Hey, are you gonna be at such and such a location?

00:27:09.040 --> 00:27:14.610
100'clock, right yeah. I'm going there tomorrow.

00:27:14.610 --> 00:27:20.070
Because okay, I'll meet you there. Bring your laptop and that was kind of collude, for, like Hey, you're getting better.

00:27:20.070 --> 00:27:20.160
I didn't sleep. I simply did not sleep that night, and finally I think, like 3, 30, or 4 30 in the morning.

00:27:20.160 --> 00:27:34.830
Hmm.

00:27:34.830 --> 00:27:38.880
I text. And I'm like, Are you gonna fire me in the morning cause I need to know you just need to be a man and tell me, you know, be an adult and let's have an adult relationship and don't don't string me around and he goes what are you talking about he

00:27:38.880 --> 00:27:38.960
Didn't even realize that he had he had crossed the line like and we're still friends.

00:27:38.960 --> 00:27:43.270
We have.

00:27:43.270 --> 00:27:46.330
We talk to the State. We see each other once every year or 3, whenever life allows, and he's he.

00:27:46.330 --> 00:28:05.370
He's a great guy. He was too young to be.

00:28:05.370 --> 00:28:08.810
He was slightly older, I'd say 6, 8, 6, or 8 years older than me, but he was simply too young to manage people, and I think that really what it has to do with is your your capacity, your ability to remove yourself as the the main character in a situation, and realize that hey, I'm not the most

00:28:08.810 --> 00:28:18.570
Important person here, I'm not the one that's gonna say how it's going to be.

00:28:18.570 --> 00:28:24.480
Yeah, I'm not the director of NASA or the President, or anything. I'm just a guy or a person managing a team that needs to needs to do this

00:28:24.480 --> 00:28:25.670
Is there anything you want to plug

00:28:25.670 --> 00:28:35.050
Hmm.

00:28:35.050 --> 00:28:43.370
I've mentioned a few books. Honestly, I think that you know the the small shortcomings that it has.

00:28:43.370 --> 00:28:54.280
I think radical candor is a great read for anyone in in or entering into a management or leadership role.

00:28:54.280 --> 00:29:03.090
Honestly, Kim Scott did a great job of laying out some framework as to how to approach a lot of different subjects and conversations that come up, and and situations like you said.

00:29:03.090 --> 00:29:08.520
It's not perfect. But what is, you know what is perfect in terms of of finances?

00:29:08.520 --> 00:29:12.920
I am personally I'll plug myself. I I hate doing it, but I suppose I should get used to it.

00:29:12.920 --> 00:29:29.170
Yeah, I'm starting to put together a newsletter about financial.

00:29:29.170 --> 00:29:32.800
Well, being, and I've learned that there is absolutely no way to say, hey, let's talk about your money without it making seem like I'm gonna try to like swindle you out of something, and like I don't even like messaging my own money I don't want to manage anyone

00:29:32.800 --> 00:29:37.280
Else's. I just want to pass along information because I have been.

00:29:37.280 --> 00:29:43.730
I'm gonna stay at Rock bottom. Not maybe maybe not compared to the speaking to some folks.

00:29:43.730 --> 00:29:50.410
The situation, but I've been in a real, real, crappy place financially, and and really turned it around.

00:29:50.410 --> 00:29:54.180
And I just kinda want to help others do the same. So Lance wilkinson.com.

00:29:54.180 --> 00:29:58.770
You can go there, you can sign up. I send them out every Wednesday.

00:29:58.770 --> 00:30:02.840
I will be starting to send them out everywhere, and would love to have you join and meet along

00:30:02.840 --> 00:30:03.880
Awesome, and I will include a link in the show notes

00:30:03.880 --> 00:30:09.480
Beautiful. Thank you.

00:30:09.480 --> 00:30:20.130
Who do you feel is a person that I should absolutely interview

00:30:20.130 --> 00:30:26.940
Hmm, interesting in a leadership capacity. Oh, man, I I mean, I mentioned 2 folks already.

00:30:26.940 --> 00:30:29.090
You know someone else who who kind of stands out, who you might be familiar with the name.

00:30:29.090 --> 00:30:36.200
Oh, man, I'm blanking on the name.

00:31:14.280 --> 00:31:18.230
Awesome. Anything else we should cover before we close

00:31:18.230 --> 00:31:29.150
I think I am good

00:31:29.150 --> 00:31:31.360
Can you see we kind of I mean, I I wrote a couple of notes for myself, but we've we've really crossed pollinated alot of questions that you've asked, but no, just thank you for having me.

00:31:31.360 --> 00:31:34.390
This has been fantastic.

00:31:34.390 --> 00:31:35.780
Awesome. Thank you for joining us, Lance. This has been great

00:31:35.780 --> 00:31:39.110
Yeah. Likewise, anytime